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Werndl

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45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Sep 23rd, 2011 at 10:09pm
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Looking for 320gr (Lyman) loads around which to bracket for accuracy.  Just need a starting point from someone's EXPERIENCE.  (Loading books give a wide range, just need a couple of examples - have lots of different powders.)

THANKS!
  

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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #1 - Sep 24th, 2011 at 12:15am
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10.0 gr of Unqiue is a EXCELLENT place to start. Work up to about 12.0 but, you'll like 10 gr, I bet Smiley

Frank
  

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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #2 - Sep 24th, 2011 at 8:53am
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IMR3031 is the old standby for smokeless loads in the .45-70.  Make sure you choose your load from the book sections labeled "For Trapdoor Springfields".

Have never tried Frank's suggestion of Unique, and wonder if powder placement (and arrangement, and movement in the case during handling, loading) of this low-volume load might be something to consider.  Perhaps he can elaborate: (dacron, cornmeal, etc. to keep the powder against the primer).??  Kinda seems like that powder charge in the .45 Govt. case might be the proverbial "BB in a boxcar".  Perhaps with Unique's instant volatility, this is not an issue.
  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #3 - Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:19am
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Well, All I can say is that I stot it for years and can get groups around .80 at 100 yards. It was shot off the bench no fillers just load from the bench and shoot.

Frank
  

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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #4 - Sep 24th, 2011 at 12:56pm
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One of our old shooters told me 24 grains of 2400, no wad, as the old standby for the 45/70. He said the load will come very close to BP velocities. 

Have not used the load myself.

         Joe.
  

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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #5 - Sep 24th, 2011 at 2:39pm
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21 gr 2400 works great for me with the 325 gr.
Years ago when i first started shooting cast I was told i only needed two powders to cover everything. 2400 & 3031 These powders have always worked well for me.Takes a lot of fiddling to get better results with other powders.
Tom
  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #6 - Sep 24th, 2011 at 5:57pm
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Hey Guys!  Original Gunpowder?
385gr Govt or 405gr HB - 68gr FFg - Dry Felt Wad ... seated out with the bullet touching the leading bore cuts and your good to go.  Got lucky last year with the Govt load - a 500m Ram went - Flop ... Offhand shot!  Smiley
The Govt 500gr bullet WILL make it to 1000yds also.  So will the 540gr Creedmoor - both with black powder
  

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John Corney
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #7 - Sep 25th, 2011 at 5:31am
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Unique has proven accurate with all bullets I've tried, from 300 to 500 grains. Unique is not listed in the Lyman 48th, I don't know why. Unique is listed for the 45-70 in manuals back to the first cast bullet manual in 1958, at least. 10-12 grains of Unique isn't much, leaves a lot of room in the case. Double charging danger? I've used Dacron or TP wads with Unique and the 457191 for 200 yard OH for years.
SR4759 is more accurate than Unique in any 45-70 I've used. I use loads below the Lyman 48th recommended, start low and go up, within safety bounds, until most of the unburnt powder is gone from the bore.
The powder bulks up, making double charging less possible/impossible.
BP loads in a Springfield mean cleaning problems/difficulty and danger of damage to the crown.
For safety, accuracy and ease of cleaning I'd go with SR4759.
joe b.
  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #8 - Sep 25th, 2011 at 7:28am
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There is an enormous body of knowledge in the bpcs group on accuracy with blackpowder loads in the 45-70.  Paul Matthews has written books on the subject.  I've used BP in my trapdoor and have had no cleaning problems, and very accurate.  But I use a hickory wiping rod, not the metal ramrod. Wink  I tried 4759 in my TD, but I couldn't get the accuracy that I did with Goex 2fg.  As far as Unique goes, in my old shooting group, we just pointed the cartridge up in the air before loading to get the powder near the primer. Lips Sealed
  

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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #9 - Sep 25th, 2011 at 10:26am
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My best smokeless loads for the trapdoor are 23 gr 4759 or 23gr 5744 with a 400 gr bullet and 22 gr 4759 with a 500 gr bullet. the 4759 and 5744 do not produce the same velocity or print the same point of impact but accuracy is vg with both, and both are within safe limits for a trapdoor according to published loading manuals. I have also had good luck with 19.5 gr 4759 with the 400 or 500 gr bullet, with a lot less recoil.  your mileage may vary, of course. I hope this helps. Joe S
  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #10 - Sep 25th, 2011 at 10:51am
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Black powder and the Arsenal bullet is best for a Trapdoor.  Since I am not shooting mid or long range matches with it that require Black anymore don't use much black.  When I did used a copy of the Arsenal 405 gr Carbine bullet at 200 yards, 500 gr Arsenal bullet for longer. It will hit 1000 targets. Not like a match rifle but classed with Military rifles be surprised how well it does,

For years the winning Trapdoor load at FR&G's 200 yard  Ram bash was a light bullet. 350 or so cast fat, .460 minimum and about 10 grs of Unique no wad.  Some of the guys me included went to 8.4 of W 231, not sure why other than some of the winning shooters switched to the Winchester powder. Probably got a deal on a jug is my guess. Unique worked well.  I don't use Wads.

I still use that Unique load in the Trapdoor with a Raphine 350 gr that measures .460 in 1/25. Same load in a Marlin 1895 for CLA too but more often use 22 grs of 4759.  22 grs is not set in stone can move up some.

Problem with a light Trapdoor bullet load for targets is getting consistent burn in that big case with minimum recoil.  22 if 4759 is about the minimum for burn. It still recoils a lot, lf looking for lighter go for the Unique load.  Marlin 1895 only weighs 7 lbs and beats me up in a 60 shot match so may go back to Unique and drop a grain or so.

All in all I would say Unique or 4759 and make sure you mount the gun same way every time is the best bet. Powder position does make a difference.  Either one make sure you don't double charge. I use visual and drop gauge for a double check.

Boats
« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2011 at 11:18am by boats »  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #11 - Sep 25th, 2011 at 8:52pm
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OK!

THANKS, guys for all the data!  I've got the Lyman 457192A of about 320gr (and a heavier one or two more).

I'm not yet into blackpowder, so I'm looking at:

10-12gr Unique
21-24gr 2400
23gr 4759
23gr 5744
and
something with 3031

all will be tried, working up light to acurate load and I'm using just a small tuft of dacron to keep the powder next to the primer.

Thanks!

Tim K
  

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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #12 - Sep 25th, 2011 at 11:19pm
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Hello Cat,

May I make a suggestion?

I am not advocating the use of any wad because the use of wads is very controversial. But if you are going to do it, make up a wooden dowel that will fit easily into an empty 45-70 case. Put your smokeless load in a case, insert the dowell, and with a pen or pencil, make a mark on the dowel at the case mouth. Paint the bottom end of the dowel red. Use the dowel to seat the wad. If you see red, you know you overcharged the case. With most smokeless loads, the case volume is pretty close, but what you really want to watch for is a double charge, which you should be able to easily detect with the dowel.  If you are using Unique, you should have one made up for that load, and a different one for the 4759 and 5744. I use a toilet paper wad for all my 45-70 smokeless loads, and I use the dowel to seat the wad. I use it in addition to the powder checkind die, and before I seat teh bullet, I make sure the toilet paper wad has been placed. If it has, I can rest assured that I did not double charge the case because it would be almost impossible to seat the wad with a dowel and not notice a double charge. If you use the 23gr of 4759 dowel for 10 or 12 gr of unique, you might not notice the double charge, so make sure you have the dowels properly lableled. I quit using Unique because of the risk of a double charge. I hope this helps. Joe S
  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #13 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:05am
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Joe that's exactly how I check for doubles.

Boats
  
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Re: 45-70 accuracy loads for Trapdoor
Reply #14 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:47am
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I like the idea.  I use a sequence now of pick one empty up, throw the charge, stuff a small tuft of dacron in, tamp with a pencil (will change to 3/8 dowel marked as recommended and labeled for charge), insert bullet by hand and seat, stack loaded ctg. in tray.

A double load wouldn't worry me with the Ruger #1 - 10 to 20 gr of Unique; but with the Trap Door Springfield I'm a bit more concerned.

Thanks ALL for the recommended loads.  I've got most all the powders and will run comparisons.  (With the exception of black powder - which I know will give the best shot-to-shot minimial variation - I'm just not into black powder for bores less than 1".)

Single shots have allowed me to make a two diameter expander (similar to M type).  A sharp shoulder for a stop and two diameters - larger is a close sliding fit for sized bullet and smaller is .004 smaller.  That allows me to hand-seat the bullet and shoot as such or seat a little deeper with a seating die and have a specific tension on the bullet.  (I use the Sinclair 7/8-14 holder for the expander.)

  

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